Key Takeaways

  • “Giving Voice to Values” is a practice designed for individuals who want to act on their values effectively.
  • Goodstein suggests a non-confrontational response strategy when dealing with unethical behavior. This includes asking for repetition, thanking for sharing and expressing empathy. Understanding and articulating the other person’s values and pressures is important while communicating why certain actions make one uncomfortable.
  • Using a real-life case study, Goodstein illustrated how to navigate a situation where a person wants to express their values in an unresponsive system. He presented a “scripting process,” where the person plans how to approach the situation, considering persuasive arguments that respect both their values and those of the other party.
  • The importance of active listening, particularly from a manager’s perspective, is emphasized. Openness to others’ perspectives, adaptability, and willingness to consider different viewpoints before taking action is central to effective leadership and decision-making.
  • Goodstein and Carter underscored the potential costs of unethical behavior, such as loss of employees, damage to reputation, and decreased trust with key stakeholders. Upholding ethical behavior aligns with consumer preferences and reinforces the importance of integrity in the organization.
  • The importance of effectively onboarding new employees to the organization’s values was discussed. It’s suggested that ethical practices should be introduced as early as possible and continuously reinforced at various organizational levels.

Executive Summary

Hi everyone! Thanks for joining us on The Leader Show with Lou Carter. Joining us today is Dr. Jerry Goodstein. Dr. Goodstein is a Professor Emeritus at the Carson School of Business, Washington State University, and the co-author of the book “Giving Voice to Values.” 

He is also the founder of Second Chance Employment Innovations and a member of the Board of Advisors at the Televerde Foundation. In this episode, he mainly discusses the book, “Giving Voice to Values” and expresses his intrigue with the concept of speaking truth to power. 

So, without any further delay, let’s jump right in.

Promoting Ethical Practice: A Discussion on ‘Giving Voice to Values’ and Navigating Unethical Situations

To begin with, Dr. Goodstein posits that “Giving Voice to Values” is a practice designed for individuals who want to act on their values effectively. He attests to its resonance with students and corporate leaders alike due to its practical, down-to-earth approach. 

Jerry sees it as a tool not only for the oppressed but also for leaders, asserting that it fosters a two-way conversation that can lead to a more ethical environment in organizations.

Lou describes how sometimes abuses of power or unethical behavior can stem from personal pain or lack of confidence. He offers a non-confrontational response strategy when encountering such situations, which includes asking for repetition, thanking for sharing, and expressing empathy towards the person.

Dr. Goodstein agrees and ties Lou’s point to the “Giving Voice to Values” practice, suggesting that it’s crucial not only to speak to one’s own values but also to understand and articulate the values of the other person. 

He stresses understanding the pressures the other party may be experiencing and empathetically communicating why certain actions make one uncomfortable. Plus, he suggests reframing discussions to find ways to act on shared values.

Integrity in Action: Navigating ‘Giving Voice to Values’ Moments in Unresponsive Systems

Lou poses a scenario where a person feels compelled to express their values but faces a seemingly unresponsive system.

Dr. Goodstein presents a real-life case study where a high-tech company’s product manager, Larry, asks his team to collect market data for two products that differed mainly in battery life. The team returns with data indicating consumer preference for the longer-life battery, but Larry requests to manipulate the data to favor the shorter-life product for quick market entry and lower modification costs.

Jerry refers to this as a “Giving Voice to Values” (GVV) moment, where the marketing team must decide what to do. He proposes a scripting process where the team plans how to approach Larry, considering persuasive arguments that respect both Larry’s position and the team’s commitment to accurate data.

The team could highlight potential repercussions of altering data, question whether customer preferences are being honored, or appeal to Larry’s past integrity and faith in his team. They could also rehearse this script for effectiveness.

Lou appreciates the concept, highlighting the importance of acting with integrity. Goodstein agrees, defining integrity as acting in alignment with values and ethical principles. He suggests that if Larry decides to present the actual data to his boss, it would demonstrate integrity, acknowledge a possible mistake, and support his team’s integrity.

Jerry concludes by noting that the GVV process can prompt individuals to reassess their positions and see situations differently, increasing their awareness of potential consequences and issues.

Coaching Through Listening: Guiding Leaders in ‘Giving Voice to Values’ Scenarios

Next, Lou wants to know how to guide someone like Larry in the scenario mentioned above. He is particularly interested in understanding the coaching process related to the situation.

In reply, Jerry stresses the crucial role of active listening, particularly from a manager’s perspective, like Larry in the given case. The ability to actively listen and acknowledge the team’s concerns is integral in such situations.

In coaching Larry, Goodstein suggests that the focus should be on ensuring Larry is not rigid in his thought processes. The essence of active listening involves openness to others’ perspectives, adaptability, and willingness to consider different viewpoints before taking action.

Effective coaching in this context would enhance Larry’s capacity to listen attentively to his team’s concerns, genuinely consider their perspectives, and subsequently make decisions that consider this new information.

Reinforcing Integrity and the Inherent Benefits of Ethical Practice in Organizations

Moving on, the speakers delve deeper into the potential costs of unethical behavior within an organization. They underline the high stakes, which can include the loss of employees, reputation damage, loss of loyalty among remaining employees, and decreased trust with key stakeholders.

In the case of Larry, addressing ethical issues not only leads to a potential benefit through alignment with consumer preferences but also reinforces the importance of integrity in the organization. Larry can be a role model to his team, demonstrating that the organization values and upholds ethical behavior.

Furthermore, it fosters a sense of personal achievement and confidence in Larry himself, as he can proudly say he listens to others, is willing to adapt and change if necessary, and upholds his own values. This scenario exemplifies how ethical behavior, aside from its inherent worth, also brings tangible benefits to both individuals and the organization as a whole.

The Role of Individual Actions and Value Alignment in Nurturing Ethical Environments

Lou and Jerry go on to discuss the importance of aligning with the values of an organization one works for. These values can be explicit, stated clearly, or implicitly, generally understood without being expressly declared. 

Lou points out that high turnover can challenge the sustainability of a culture that an organization has worked hard to cultivate, especially when new hires come from various environments with different cultural norms.

In an analogy to Chaos Theory, Lou likens a new hire to a “grain of sand.” Even as a single small element within a larger system, it can create ripples, i.e., effect changes. This underlines the potential impact each individual, regardless of their position or status, can have within an organization. The implication is that every member of a team or organization has a part to play in fostering a culture that upholds shared values.

Jerry agrees, affirming the potentially significant influence of individual actions, even when these actions might seem small or insignificant in the larger context of the organization.

The Impact of Onboarding and Continuous Reinforcement of Ethical Practices in Organizations

On a similar note, the speakers discuss the necessity of onboarding new employees effectively to the organization’s implicit and explicit values. Jerry mentions the co-author of his book, Mary Gentile, who developed the Giving Voice to Values (GVV) approach. This methodology focuses on providing practical ways to act on one’s values in the workplace, encouraging the employees to do so, and fostering an environment where such actions are supported and reinforced.

This method, according to Jerry, should be introduced as early as possible and continuously reinforced at various levels within the organization. It’s critical for leadership to be actively involved in this process, not only introducing it but also ensuring its sustained practice and setting an example for employees to follow.

In essence, introducing and reinforcing ethical practices like GVV early in an employee’s tenure can create a solid foundation for understanding the organization’s culture and values. The “grains of sand” Lou mentioned earlier can become positive forces within the organization, echoing and reinforcing its values.

Conclusion: The ‘Grains of Sand’ Effect and the Challenges in ‘Giving Voice to Values’

Lou and Jerry wrap up their conversation by reiterating the importance of giving voice to values in organizations and the impact that individuals, or “grains of sand,” can have on the larger whole. 

They also acknowledge the challenges that can make it difficult for individuals to voice their values, such as not knowing how to effectively take action or being fearful of potential consequences. 

Thank you for listening!


Lou Carter : Hey everybody. Welcome to the Louis Carter Show. We have Dr. Jerry Goodstein on with us today. He's great. He wrote a book called Giving Voice to Values, and he's a Professor Emeritus over at over at the Carson School of Business, Washington State University, and he is founder of Second Chance Employment Innovations and member of the Board of advisors at the Tele Verde Foundation. Jerry, it's great to have you here with us today.

Jerry Goodstein : Yeah, it's a pleasure to be with you as well, Lou. I don't know if you're a tennis player, but I'm actually just in the middle right now of reading Billie Jean King's auto biography: All In, and I feel a little bit like a doubles team without my doubles partner Mary, who happens to Mary Gentilly, happens to be also the better of the two players. And so we're sorry we're not able to have Mary join us. She is resting comfortably right now, but had some, some health issues that prevented her from being here this morning.

LC : We're sending our best to Mary and Mary, we hope you're doing well and sending our best healing wishes. It's a challenging thing and we know you'll get better. And Jerry's a great guy though, and we're in super good hands and we're gonna talk about some awesome stuff today. Giving voice to values is gonna be a lot of fun because I love this concept, right. Speaking. It's, you know, a lot of people say it in different ways, right? They say sort of speaking to power, right? You say giving voice to power, and, you know, how do you do that?

And I think of you know, John F. Kennedy and Gandhi, you know versus this other, other way of saying that speaking to power actually, or doing the right thing as you described in your book, actually has more to do with what we call helping the oppressed rather than speaking specifically to those who are in power, who in fact are doing things that perhaps aren't the most ethical or values based. Right? So tell me more about how that fits in. It's that, that sort of, you know, speaking to power yet helping the oppressed, right? That's really the two, that's a dichotomy there.

The Role and Impact of 'Giving Voice to Values' in Business [2:45]

JG : You bet. Well, I think the beauty of the giving voice to values practice and it's kind of a practice, Lou, I think it's a way for individuals who want to do the right thing and feel like they wanna act on their values, to have an opportunity to do so and to really be effective. I think the reason why giving voice to values is resonated so well with students that I've taught at the Carson College business with other business school students and other corporate leaders and employees, those and professions, is that it's, it's down to earth, it's grounded, it's practical, and it provides people with some real practical skills to build their competence and their confidence in being able to voice their values, speak to the issues that they really see as being important. And so I think it's something that is a wonderful tool for the oppressed.

And, you know, and also I think for leaders as well, it really is something that resonates with them. They see value in empowering individuals to speak up, to speak to their values, because that creates a two-way conversation that really ultimately can lead to a more ethical environment in organizations.

LC : Yeah. It's interesting, you had mentioned sort of this, you know, becoming more ethical in organizations and there's a great book called The Age of Heretics, one of my favorite books, wonderful book. And it talks about specifically how leaders throughout time place themselves in a position where they had to or must speak to millions of people or change things. And the kind of courage it takes to do that and confidence, self-confidence.

JG : Yeah.

LC : Because often when there is power or there's something wrong, not [laugh], that's wrong, to be honest, it's being done for some other reason. It could be some sort of pain that someone's feeling. Or it could be a lack of confidence. And to simply say something like, could you say that again, [laugh], repeat that now you're no longer an easy target, right. Could you repeat that? And then once it's said, you could say, oh, thank you for sharing second. Right? And then the third is, I'm sorry, you feel that way. Right? And that's, you're hurting. Right? So there's people who are hurting, who lash out, who with power. Who bully, who take advantage of others in ways that they must not. And sometimes it's legal, sometimes it's illegal, sometimes it's civil in the way it's done. And at the same time that kind of pain Right. Manifests in ways that can hurt others.

Fostering Empathy, Understanding Pressures, and Aligning Shared Values in the Workplace [5:45]

JG : You bet. Yeah. And I think you're, you're bringing up a really important point, Lou, that connects to, I think, the way giving voice to values works, which is, I think what we're trying to do with the giving voice to values practice is put people in a position where they can not only speak to their values, but also speak to the other person's values as well, to be able to understand where they're coming from. Understand, as you say, they, they may be hurting, they may be having pressures. And so let's imagine you're in a position where you are a first line level manager in a sales organization, and your manager is asking you to get involved in some practices that you don't feel are right. And you wanna be able to acknowledge that too, to speak to that, to communicate why you don't feel comfortable with that.

In doing so, it's really important to understand the pressures that person might be under, the pressures your manager is under. So when you communicate, when you express your values, you can do that in a way where you're not gonna attack the person, where you're, you're displaying some empathy, some understanding, and then also being able to, to perhaps even reframe it as, what can we do? Is there a way we can move ahead? Where we both can feel that we're able to, to act on our own personal values and our shared values as well.

LC : That’s true. That's a good example. So let's go there, let's help people [laugh]. Cause if people need help today, [laugh]. So if we're gonna, if you're gonna do anything today, we might as well pay it forward a little bit and..

JG : Sure thing.

LC : … Let's give an example, first. You know, where somebody is feeling like they have to give voice to values, right? They must, they feel compelled yet. Yeah. the system doesn't or any system, social organizational, it doesn't allow for it, or at least seemingly allow for it, right? What can you teach? What can you tell others about what they should do?

Case Study Analysis: 'Giving Voice to Values' in Action [7:50]

JG : Sure. So let me maybe I can set this up, Lou with an example. And it's actually a case study that Mary and I developed a number of years ago. An actual real case, a high technology company. You have a senior level manager who's product manager who's working in this organization, consumer electronic products. They've been growing like gangbusters. And this individual has two products that they're looking to bring to market. And the manager asked his team, a team of very well educated, greatly experienced product marketing team, to go out and collect some market information on these two different products, find out what consumers are really looking for, what they're favoring.

And really, both products don't differ that much. Just differ in terms of the battery. One has a battery that has a shorter life, one has a battery with a little bit longer life, but the one with the shorter life would not require as much product modification.

So you have this manager and has the responsibility to the team to go out and collect some market data. So they come back, Lou, with the market data, they present it to the boss, Larry, let's say the boss's name is Larry. And Larry looks at the data and says, you know what you've presented to me, I'm not sure I really like, it's not, I think my boss is going to favor. The consumers actually preferred, no surprise, the longer battery life.

So, Larry wants to be able to go back to his boss and say, you know what? The way the market data turned out, we can go ahead with the shorter battery life. We can not spend as much in product modification. We can get this product out to the market right away. So what he basically tells the team is to modify the data and represent it in a way that will favor the shorter live product.

Now, there's a GVV moment right there, Lou, because now the marketing team is confronted with the issue of what do we do now? What do we do? And what GVV puts that those individuals in a position of saying, we don't wanna change the data. These are data that we've collected, we wanna make sure that we can present it, but we also understand that you are under some potential pressures here.

So, let's take this through. First of all, is that clear, Lou, what the situation is doing?

LC : You are doing great, Jerry. Go ahead. Yep.

JG : Okay. So now if we wanna say, let's, what can we do to help these individuals give voice to their values? Can they convince Larry to go with the actual market data? What GVV proposes is a kind of what I would call scripting process, Lou, it's a way of thinking about and asking if we could act on our values here, we wanna act on our values, how could we approach Larry and convince him?

What are the arguments that we could bring to bear here that would be persuasive for Larry? Understanding his position, but also understanding ours? We wanna hold true to the market data. We might then begin to think about different ways of approaching Larry. Is there a way, for example, to let Larry know the potential consequences of changing the market data? What if in fact, the product that consumers preferred is in fact the better product, even though Larry's bust wants the other product? Is that really honoring consumer preferences?

What if it came out that the data were altered? What would that mean for Larry and for the entire unit also appealing to the faith that Larry had had in his team, that the team might come forward and say, you've always believed in us, Larry, why would you change that now? And they could even use an argument, Lou, where they would recognize that Larry is somebody who has demonstrated and role modeled integrity, and this would violate what he's doing.

So giving voice to values would then put these individuals in a position to almost develop a script and to, in some sense, even practice that script, Lou, rehearse it with each other. There would be some peer coaching that would go on, and then when that product marketing team would get back to Larry, they could approach Larry in a way where they're approaching him thoughtfully and hopefully persuasively.

LC : Amazing. Amazing. So, this whole concept of acting with integrity, Larry acted with integrity and he maintained consistency in his integrity. Tell me more about that, the behaviors, competencies that you must have really

JG : Well, well, well, yes. I mean, and integrity is really acting in a way that's aligned with your values. A aligned also with principles of right and wrong in this instance this would mean not changing the market data, not manipulating the data to try to appease Larry's boss. And so acting on integrity in this instance, we would mean that Larry would be willing to say to his team, okay, you're right. I should not do this. I am gonna go to Sean and I'm gonna present the market data as it is. That is integrity. That's recognizing that perhaps you did make a mistake. It's listening to the people who you're working with, and then it is doing the right thing in this particular situation and supporting your team and their desire to uphold their integrity as well, to give voice to their values.

LC : Tremendous.

JG : Yeah. The other thing that's interesting about this too, again, is that this also provides an opportunity giving voice to values does for Larry to step back a bit and to also reassess his situation. So, you know, have the marketing team, Lou just said, okay Larry, you're the boss. You will do what you say. Then he wouldn't have had that opportunity to reassess his own position to maybe see it in a different way, recognize perhaps some of the consequences and, and issues that he perhaps was not aware of, that his team made aware of through their efforts and giving voice to their values.

LC : So tell me more. This is a great case example. So we have Larry, how do we coach Larry, right? To do in this situation? Tell me about the coaching process.

Active Listening: A Vital Skill in 'Giving Voice to Values' and Enhancing Managerial Decision-Making [14:20]

JG : You bet. Yeah. Well, that's something that I'm particularly interested in as well, and I write about even in the book, and that's the, that's kind of the listener's perspective. Okay. So in some ways, Larry is in the position of really listening and listening to his team and making sure that he acknowledges what his team is saying and really takes to heart what it is that his team is conveying.

So, that role that Larry is in, which is in a, in many ways, a representative manager role, where employers are coming to you with concerns and issues that they're raising, it's really important to be able to listen actively, to listen openly to acknowledge the concerns that are being ex expressed and taking those concerns to heart. So, the challenge then, for Larry, Lou, and what we would wanna coach him on, is to make sure that, again, he's not set in his ways, he's not digging his heels in as can often happen.

It is a way for Larry to be able to maybe adapt and change depending on what his employees are telling him. It really is the essence of listening openly and actively. So we would want to coach Larry to listen to what his employees are saying, take it to heart and really consider the views that they're expressing and then go ahead and act. But with that other information in mind.

LC : Hey, Jerry, great question from Melissa Tomi, she, and this is perfect. Alyssa's saying employees are being driven more and more by their values today. And we've heard that it's absolutely true. People are without doubt finding companies that align with their values and staying with companies align with their values. Alyssa asks, what happens when an organization is not ethical? What's the cost?

The High Stakes of Ethical Breaches: Employee Retention, Reputation, and Trust in the Lens of 'Giving Voice to Values’ [16:04]

JG : Yeah, it is a great question. And I think the cost is, you can measure that cost in a variety of different ways. One way, which I think is a critical cost, is you lose employees. Now, I've had many conversations over the years. I've taught at the Carson College of Business with students that have shared with me. They're considering leaving the organization because of actions that are being taken that are not ethical. And more and more now, we see that employees do value being able to act on their values and also the organization acting on its values as well. So you have loss of employees, you have loss of reputation in the marketplace for those employees that maybe don't leave, but stay, there could be a loss of loyalty as well. So, the loss of reputation, loss of trust with your key stakeholders when an organization engages in unethical activity is significant. And it's one reason, by the way, Lou, that I think leaders embrace giving voice to values. They recognize that it's important for the organization to empower people to raise those issues when they come up so they can be acted on. Okay? And it doesn't mean that every single time issues are gonna be raised, but at least provides employees and leaders with skills to be able to do that.

LC : Especially in the case of Larry here, right? Larry himself. There's huge implications for that. What's the cost of that? There's a cost benefit that can happen off the analysis. So you have a huge benefit from addressing those ethical breaches.

JG : It sure is. Yeah. So, for Larry, in making sure that he upholds what his team is asking him to do, presents the accurate market data, there's a better opportunity to in fact go with the product that really reflects consumer preferences. You can think about all the difference that'll make for this organization. It's also reinforcing the importance of integrity in the organization. It means that Larry is really walking his talk. You hear that phrase a lot, but in this case, it really does mean that he can be a role model to his team and a role model for others as well. Yeah. And for Larry himself, Lou, he can feel good, he can feel confidence, he can feel a sense of confidence. Again, you use those, both those terms about being someone who is able to listen to others change if necessary and uphold his own personal values as well.

LC : I like that change if necessary. Right? We, you know, I think a lot of leaders, especially CEOs that I know that I am myself, we look for these moments where we could fail, right? Where can I push it to this point so I can fail and learn another direction? Maybe I'm going, I take a quick left. You know, because there's information data in my way saying I have to try this. I have to try. And people may be upset by it, right? They could be upset by that direction. We need to now shift and do this, and more people have to work on it. However, it's our ethical obligation, often as a leader, to take those hard lefts, regardless of the outcome of harder work, right? Or whatever it may be. Cuz we have to make the hard decisions.

Navigating Ethical Dilemmas in Business [19:32]

JG : No, I agree totally. And again, over the years, I've taught the ethics course at Carson College Of Business. That's something I try to convey to students, you know, encourage them to make those sorts of difficult, hard choices. Lou, let me add by the way, because I do know the outcome of this, this turned out to be personally meaningful for Larry. He recognized that even in asking his team to change the market data he had lost, potentially lost something of himself that he was able to recover.

But he recognized that maybe he had reached a point where what he was doing was not the right thing to be doing, and he ended up leaving that position fairly soon, not leaving the organization, but moving into a different role, which wasn't quite as fast paced and hard driving and he could work in the way that he really wanted to work.

So, I think that's the other kind of benefit here is that you stay closer touch with your own values so you can, you can act in the ways that you feel are going to be beneficial to you and to the organization as well.

LC : It's true because when we work for another, an organization, we have to be aligned with values. There's, and sometimes they're stated, they're explicit. Sometimes they're implicit. They're, just, we all, we just know the way we act. And you know, when they're on the wall, they don't have as much meaning, perhaps we can't live them. When there's high turnover, that's very difficult because we have a new officer or executive or manager employee coming into a situation where they've done years and years of culture work and coaching, and all of a sudden this individual who's been in various other situations gets inputted into this perhaps very functional environment.

And then what happens? What happens is a result, it's that grain of sand as Waldrop talks about in Chaos Theory. That grain of sand that's placed in nutrition, we say organic elements. So what happens with these small grains of sand, right? In a sea of thousands and thousands? Can it make a ripple effect? Right? Can it do that? Can it have those ripple effects by just one person being putted?

JG : Sure can, sure can.

LC : Absolutely. It's kind of strange, isn't it? And how do we, how do we not avoid, how do we work within that situation? How do we, how do organizations ensure that they're quickly onboarded to the implicit and explicit values of the company?

The Power of Early Introduction and Constant Reinforcement [22:03]

JG : Well, that's part of, again, what Mary and Gentilly in particular has been doing in speaking with corporations about introducing, giving voice to values. It's a way to introduce what we've been talking about Lou at a very, very early stage and to make it a kinda ongoing practice. So, in the book, you know, I referenced four organizations that have done this in different ways, but they have found ways to bring, giving voice to values, to employees early on so that the message is sent, clearly, we expect you and we encourage you to act on your values. Here's how you can do this. And it's something that we're going to be looking at and following and encouraging on an ongoing basis in our organizations. I think that's part of how you get this done in the workplace, is by bringing it in and having it reinforced at multiple levels.

It's, you know, again, Lou, it's one thing to bring something in and then just have it die on the line. It's another to have leadership in particular reinforcing this all along the way, in particular through their examples. So, I think incorporating something like giving voice to values early on, as you say, in that onboarding process can be a really critical part of how little grains of sand that you're talking about. I like that image a lot.

LC : It's credible how these grains of sand can have such a wide reaching impact. And they're just small things, right? And sort of the ways in which we can, we can make impact. And like Larry, this is one person, right? You could say, probably say the same for some of the situations at Enron. It's just, it was one person. He happened to own it, and he had sons involved, or [laugh], there was a lot.

So, these are people, they're grains of sand and why is it that the whole sort of mound of sand, right? That's sometimes below in a hierarchical structure can't speak up. Have you seen that phenomena? It's a psychological phenomena, isn't it, that we have this one person at the top, yet it could be thousands of people below and their voices just aren't heard. What's that all about Jerry [laugh]?

The Transformative Potential of the 'Giving Voice to Values' Program in Business Ethics Education and Social Transformation [24:32]

JG : Well, I think again, Lou, there are a number of reasons why people are hesitant sometimes to speak up. And I think part of it, you know, there are all kinds of barriers to doing that, right? And I think part of, again, what the beauty of giving voice to values is it's allowing these sort of grains of sand to multiply and multiply and multiply and multiply by giving people hands-on skills, ways of approaching it. I think sometimes, Lou, people want to take action. They don't know how, they don't know how to be effective.

And that's where giving voice to values comes into play in terms of teaching skills around pre-scripting, around rehearsal, about, again, building and creating those arguments about helping individuals who are on the listening side be able to listen more carefully and take action on what people are sharing with them.

I think that's a big part of it. You know, Mary's program of GVV is one of the few places where I think this idea of really voicing values and providing people with the skills and tools to do that really comes together in a practical and accessible way. That's certainly something that my students at Carson College have shared with me over the years. I mean, I started teaching business ethics in 1994, believe it or not.

And even though giving voice to values came along later, once it came along, and it was introduced in my classrooms anyway, Lou students just loved it. They want to be the grains of sand. I really believe that every individual wants to be one of those grains of sand. And it's about giving them that opportunity and the skills to do so.

LC : Absolutely. I love it. I love it, Jerry. It's been a great conversation. I love learning about Larry giving voice to values and how important it is in society and social systems and organizations, and I'd love to learn more next time, perhaps just for us to really talk with each other about your advisory position as well. Cause I think I really do believe that what you're doing there gives voice to so many who have been through so much and have gone through so much being incarcerated and also now reevaluating and recreating and transforming their own lives, which is really important.

Jerry Goodstein, we have he's from the WSU Carson School of Business. There's the website, check it out at Just Alyssa. She said, Go Cougs. So here you go.

JG : Thank you very much. Lou, it was a real privilege and a real pleasure to be here this morning and just have a chance to talk with you and your listeners as well. I hope it's been helpful.

LC : We've been wonderful talking with you, Jerry. I hope, hope to stay in good contact, and know you. I could tell you, you're a very good man. You're doing very important work in the world that so many people need.

JG : Thank you so much. Thank you, Lou.