In this episode of The Leader Show, Lou Carter interviews Mark Fogelman, President of Fogelman Properties, a leading name in the multifamily real estate sector. Mark delves into the company’s rich history, commitment to creating a family-like culture, and innovative strategies that have made Fogelman Properties a “Most Loved Workplace”. He especially highlights the importance of community engagement and personal connections in driving employee satisfaction and business success.
Hello, everyone! Welcome back to The Leader Show with Lou Carter. We’re excited to have Mark Fogelman, President of Fogelman Properties, with us today. Mark has been a driving force in transforming Fogelman into a leader in the multifamily sector.
What began as a local real estate firm has grown into one of the most respected privately-held multifamily companies in the U.S. Since commencing his tenure in 1994 and becoming President in 2001, Mark has been instrumental in expanding Fogelman’s acquisition platform and managing its various divisions.
He holds a BSM degree from Tulane University and is an active participant in both industry and community initiatives, serving on boards like the National Multifamily Housing Council and New Memphis Institute. Now, let’s hear from Mark on what makes Fogelman Properties a Most Loved Workplace®.
Firstly, Mark reflects on Fogelman Properties’ legacy in multifamily real estate, focusing on its ownership and operation of apartment communities across the Southeast and Southwest regions of the U.S. He highlights that Fogelman Properties manages everything from sales and marketing to maintenance and construction management. One of the key goals for the company is to create a sense of community for both residents and employees.
Additionally, Mark shares the company’s history, noting that it was founded by his father, Averin Fogelman, in 1963 and recently celebrated its 60th year in business. He and his brother Rick took the helm in the late 1990s, building on their father’s legacy by expanding into management, making investments, and driving acquisitions.
Today, Fogelman Properties oversees around 110 communities across 13 states.
Moving on, Lou highlights the importance of the “Most Loved Workplace” designation for recruitment and retention, citing statistics showing candidates are more likely to choose such workplaces. He praises Fogelman Properties for its community service, exemplified by the 60 Acts of Kindness celebrated on its 60th anniversary. These efforts have expanded to 100 Acts of Kindness and 1,000 hours of service.
Mark shares that community service has long been a part of the company’s culture, dating back to the 1970s when his father offered college scholarships to employees’ children. Today, “Fogelman Cares”, an employee-led initiative supporting various national organizations, perpetuates the company’s sense of community.
On its 60th anniversary, the company launched the “60 Acts of Kindness” campaign, which quickly grew as employees across 13 states competed to outdo one another in acts of kindness. The campaign was so successful that it even outranked the business achievements of that year.
Next, Lou mentions the importance Mark attributes to the company’s “fun committee” to drive employee engagement. Lou then asks Mark to elaborate on the rewards, giveaways, recognition, and events organized by this committee, including the annual leadership conference and virtual education. Mark highlights that the fun committee oversees various engagement events, such as “Fog Woman Fridays,” where employees can dress casually, eclipse viewing parties, bowling outings, and baseball games. They also organize monthly and quarterly awards and an annual conference.
Mark notes that in challenging economic times, it’s important to relieve stress and show the human side of the business. The fun committee helps create a sense of community by recognizing employees as individuals with names, families, and milestones rather than just numbers.
Lou asks Mark how Fogelman Properties’ recruitment and onboarding process contributes to its success as a Most Loved Workplace. In response, Mark explains that while the company meets standard expectations in these areas, what truly sets it apart is its focus on corporate culture. Fogelman Properties has a “Culture Card” that all employees carry, highlighting four core principles:
#1 Integrity: Demonstrating a high degree of integrity in everything, especially when no one is watching. This involves being transparent and responsible in all actions, even in small, everyday matters.
#2 Personal Concern: Showing genuine care for each employee as an individual, acknowledging the family and personal life behind each person. This includes knowing employees’ names and celebrating personal milestones to foster a sense of community.
#3 Community Concern: Being good corporate citizens through initiatives like Fogelman Cares, which not only engages employees but also resonates deeply with them, strengthening their connection to the company.
#4 Excellence: Striving to be the best in the industry. Despite emphasizing social welfare, the company remains focused on financial viability, ensuring it is well-prepared to navigate economic challenges.
These four cultural principles are central to Fogelman Properties’ onboarding process and company meetings. In fact, they play a crucial role in attracting, retaining, and enabling the company to thrive.
Moving on, Lou mentions the challenge of maintaining a personal connection with employees as a company scales up, especially for CEOs. He asks Mark how he keeps that personal touch with 600 employees across many properties.
Mark admits that sustaining personal connections has been one of the most challenging aspects of Fogelman Properties’ growth. Reflecting on the company’s journey, he notes that early in his career, the focus was on growth and profitability, but they soon realized that sustainable growth requires people and engagement. As a result, the company consciously decided to restrain its growth to maintain its quality of service and personal connections. This differentiated it from competitors that experienced more rapid growth.
Mark emphasizes that while technology and AI offer ways to scale, there remains a vital need for personal interactions, whether with employees, customers, or investors. He states that experiences like self-checkout at grocery stores can lead to frustration due to the lack of personal assistance.
Similarly, Mark highlights the importance of a personal touch in apartment communities, where knowing residents and their needs fosters a true sense of community. He believes that Fogelman Properties’ differentiator going forward will lie in this personal touch rather than the size of the company.
Lou takes a question from Kerry Gilliam about lessons Mark has learned from his father and grandfather, particularly those that have contributed to making Fogelman Properties a “Most Loved Workplace”.
Mark acknowledges that while every generation evolves, the commitment to excellence and importance of personal connection remains very much a part of the company’s fabric. He shares the story of Miss Sally Robinson, an employee who recently retired after 46 years with the company. She had a deep personal connection to Fogelman Properties, having raised her family within the company’s communities, with multiple family members working for the business.
Miss Sally would proudly express what the company meant to her at company events, even singing “Amazing Grace” to everyone. Mark mentions that this personal touch is something he learned from his father and grandfather, and it remains a core part of the company’s culture.
For Mark and his brother Rick, the personal aspect of the business is the most rewarding part, and it’s central to the company’s success as a “Most Loved Workplace.”
Next, Lou reflects on how maintaining culture has been integral to becoming a “Most Loved Workplace”. He asks Mark how he has managed to stay true to the company’s culture while scaling up.
Mark highlights that the key to scaling the Fogelman culture has been its incredible associates who continue to embody and spread the company’s values. He and his brother Rick rely on their team to manage day-to-day operations. It allows them to focus on broader strategic issues like maintaining and enhancing the corporate culture, which is always a top agenda item in their executive meetings.
Additionally, Mark emphasizes the importance of staying positive, especially during challenging times, and ensuring that positivity is spread throughout the company.
For the brothers, connecting personally with employees is crucial when visiting properties, as “Fogelman” represents not just a family name but the collective culture of employees who see the company as a family. This, Mark believes, is what truly scales Fogelman Properties’ culture and maintains its integrity across the organization.
In his closing statements, Mark addresses his employees and potential new hires, reflecting on the significance of Fogelman Properties being recognized as a “Most Loved Workplace”. He emphasizes the rigorous evaluation process that the company underwent to achieve this award, highlighting that it was largely driven by associate feedback through surveys.
Mark openly acknowledges the industry’s challenges, including high turnover rates. However, he highlights that Fogelman Properties strives to be an employer of choice with retention rates above the industry average. Additionally, he expresses a deep sense of responsibility for the well-being of his employees and their families, underscoring the importance of the company’s benefits, such as 401(k) plans.
Mark concludes by reaffirming his dedication to the workforce. He cites the company’s storied history and recent accolades as evidence of its commitment to a supportive and engaging work environment.
Thank you for your time!
Lou Carter : Welcome to the Most Loved Workplace, The Leader Show. Today, we're thrilled to have Mark Fogelman join us. Mark is at the helm of Fogelman Properties, overseeing their diverse operating divisions and spearheading the expansion of their acquisition platform. Since joining the company in 1994, Mark has held various leadership positions, becoming president in 2001.
With a BSM degree from Tulane University's Freeman School of Business, Mark is deeply involved in industry and community serving on several boards including the National Multifamily Housing Council and New Memphis Institute. Join us as Mark shares insights on what makes Fogelman a Most Loved Workplace.
We have The Mark Fogelman on, with us today. This is going to be exciting. You get The Fogelman at Fogelman today, the real source and to learn about what Fogelman is all about, what they do in the industry, how they've become an industry leader, and really what it's all about right now in recruitment, retention, in a challenging environment, yet he's just killing it.
Mark is just killing it, so you have to learn from him today because there's just phenomenal things to learn about how he became a Most Loved Workplace, what they do. And the industry and just let's get at it. Mark, great to see you. Thanks for coming on The Leader Show and great to see you in Memphis.
Mark Fogelman : Good to meet you, Lou. And I'm very pleased to be here. And once again, I want to thank your organization for honoring our company as a 100 Most Loved Workplaces. It's been a lot more about what it's meant to our company and how we're using it. But it's been great. So a little background on our company, we're in what's called the multifamily space, which means it's the housing part of real estate, the housing sector.
So we own and operate apartment communities. And these are typically two to 300 unit communities located primarily in the Southeast, Southwest. And we do everything from sales and marketing to maintenance, to accounting for these investment properties and then we're also involved with construction management, investment management, how we call that cradle to grave, the whole process of sourcing the investments. But the core of our business has been operation, the people side, and really creating community for our residents and our associates.
A little background on the business, we're just finished our 60th year in business last year, very honored. Brother Rick and I helmed the company today. It was founded by our father, Averin Fogelman in 1963. They were the second generation of a business, hopefully many more generations to come. The family was a traditional immigrant family. Grandfather came over in the early 1910s, 20s from Poland, immigrated to Ellis Island, entered first grade as a 13-year old, could not speak English, graduated high school on time.
Got an education, but it was very working class, humble beginnings, you know, pushed his children to get an education and they were entrepreneurs. And my dad started the company, and brother Rick and I joined. I'm in my 30th year, Rick's 34th year. We took the company over and purchased it in the late nineties.
Father was a big developer. I'd say he was a pioneer in the industry in the Southeast. There weren't really companies with multiple carbon communities across multiple areas. Rick and I, our father was really an entrepreneur and the developer, Rick and I pushed our management attributes, expanded that, and then investments and acquisitions, and as you sit here today, we have about 110 communities across 13 States, Southeast, Southwest, and Midwest, most everywhere between Florida and Texas and in between.
Business was in our blood growing up. Let's say, dinner room conversation. Anything we did on the weekend, if there was a public feeding nearby us, we drove through there with our father. If it was our property, my mom took notes while he said, Wendy, the trash is by this building, the landscape is too high. And that kind of just, you know, emanated through us.
In high school and college, we worked summer jobs. Rick got to do construction. I did apartment leasing and then grew into the business. And then fortunately we've been able to put our mark into a business. Today and rewarding 650 to 700 employees at any given time and just multi generations of employees with family members in the business, and also creating community for our residents and making it more than just four walls and a ceiling. So that gets us to today.
LC : That's awesome, Mark. You know, we have similar backgrounds, actually grandfather from Kiev started an insurance agency in 29 and grandmother from Poland. So it's funny and very interesting, the kind of rags-to-riches, Horatio Alger story, right, for your father and it's just incredible how you made that part of the fabric of your family and your community and you have done that since really growing up.
So the skill that you have, you've gone well beyond the 10,000 hours early on in your life and now you're into the many more than 10,000 hours in terms of your expertise, skill, and thought leadership in this area with 600 employees at any given time. Multifamilies, right? Not only the housing, but also in your company itself and your dedication to community. We've done a lot with community as well in terms of community service, volunteering, a lot of work you do at Fogelman and now in, as you said, 60th year, is that right?
MF : 61st year, yeah. Last year and yeah, what was really ironic or apropos is that It was during the week of our 60th anniversary celebration last year. We had about 250 of our associates in town for it. They received notification that we had been chosen as one of the top 100 companies by Newsweek and then the fact we are one of the few real estate companies in the industry and it's really great.
Rick and I were talking yesterday and looking back, you know, it's our industry's incredibly cyclical. And typically we have boom and bust and very few companies have sustained them in battle tested through that time, and we've, you know, learned to persevere and prepare for challenging times and not get ahead of ourselves and not overgrow. But really the content's been our people all along. So this award really was honoring our folks that have been there on the front line. With this, we've hopefully given them the support to make them successful, make them successful on that end. But celebrating that award with our associates was really special to us.
LC : Sounds good. You know, it's so important with recruitment retention these days too, is to have that designation, you know, four times more likely to recruit, to retain more, perform better. And you know, over 92 percent of candidates choose Most Loved Workplaces, right, which is, it's just crazy. So it's really good stats. 60 acts of kindness because of those 60 years. What was that like? And it resulted in 100 AOKs: Acts of Kindness, and 1000 hours of community service. That's a lot of work in volunteering community service.
You know, it's a part of the fabric of your company too. It's a lesson for a lot of companies to learn is that you can integrate acts of kindness, good things, sustainability, social responsibility when it makes sense for business as well. And that's a good thing.
MF : Yeah. I mean, there's no doubt it's been part of our company for years. And we've noticed massive uptick in employee engagement when it becomes a punch in the clock type item. And, you know, our legacy goes back to the seventies, actually, where our father actually offered free college scholarships to local universities for anybody that showed effort and had minimal grades and desired and stayed problem free with that.
And thousands of children took advantage of that. And then our current day iteration is called Fogelman Cares, an employee-led, associate-led effort that up until this past year had always chosen one organization nationally. We did Ronald McDonald House. We did food pantries. We did Make A Wish at others that all of our communities around the country supported and raised money for it. Then they were able to reward their local chapter, with that. In preparation for our 60th anniversary, we launched 60 Acts of Kindness. And it really, you know, it went viral where everybody competed with each other.
And, you know, one property would go start a volleyball tournament to try to raise money. Others would bring, you know, the food pantry work, soup kitchen work, doughnuts to the fire houses in town. But everybody tried to outdo each other, we ended up with over a hundred Acts of Kindness, thousand service hours contributed that's across 13 States.
And today, you know, every month there's a new idea that comes out and it seems like that became very contagious. And that was more, a bigger moment of pride for us than the business successes that year.
LC : Outstanding. You know, this SPARK model, which is what the Most Loved Workplace Index is all about. And we surveyed you on as respect as the third, right? And one of the things you mentioned about respect, is that you have a fun committee, right? And this is very interesting here and tell us more about this rewards, giveaways, recognition, annual leadership conference, virtual education.
Tell me, you know, what makes that special for you. What has really been a standout part of fun committee that has made you particularly happy or proud of your company because of what's come out of it.
MF : Yeah. And that encompasses all of our engagement events. Everything from Fog Woman Fridays, wearing jeans and a t- shirt on Fridays and tennis shoes to different events. We had a big eclipse watching party, an eclipse viewing party, a couple of them during the eclipse to bowling, baseball outings to monthly quarterly awards, celebrations for annual conference.
And then we have a committee that Rick and I typically have numerous requests every few weeks of these, of making sure we can clear these dates to get it going. But it's just, you know, it's a very stressful time. Of course, the economy changing now and most businesses with inflation, it's difficult.
So trying to take the edge off work has been very, very important. And I think, you know, trying to show the human side, as well, in that, and we've, you know, once again, the uptick we've had in all of our surveys and responses have been very good. Making life for our associates beyond being just an employee number, you know, 122 at this property, you know, it's a name, it's a family, they have a birthday, an anniversary, and you want to celebrate all these things. It's been true to that.
LC : Yeah. Also the career achievement part too. That was the connected outcomes, part of our SPARK. And, you know, for career achievement, you have careers week, right? You have an employee assistance program, simulation training for maintenance team and your centralization pilot and onboarding. So how is your onboarding recruitment a little bit different or better really to enable that Most Loved Workplace and connect into that culture that you have at Fogelman that's so successful.
MF : Yeah, we checked the boxes in all those areas, but I think the one thing is part of that and I don't mean to redirect, but it kind of encompasses the culture aspect of it that I think we're worried to have differentiated in that. And, you know, as part of every new associate, first thing they do, and even we have an executive committee meeting this morning and our first topic is status of corporate culture and what are we doing to enhance it. We really get an employee-led effort many years ago to identify what is our culture and what does it mean to us.
We came up with four items and we actually have a culture card everyone carries with the four most important points to us. The first one being we demonstrate a high degree of integrity in everything we do. And we typically try to show that it's really most important when no one's watching, because that's really when you show who you truly are.
So we try to demonstrate that. That could be as simple things as, you know, making sure that leftovers in the refrigerator or go where they go. If someone drops a $10 bill that someone finds the finder for it, but just really want above and beyond that. If there's an extra, you know, the extra deposits return to residents as soon as possible to always be an above board, transparent on that.
The second being personal concern for each other. Like this one really emanates with me because every one of our 600 associates is, again, you know, there's a family behind that, there's celebrations, there's weddings, there's births, there's sad times of loss. And I think what makes a company unique and not just a machine or a commodity is really knowing those relationships and knowing names.
I get very stressed out because the more I go visit properties, the larger we get. It's getting much harder to keep track of everyone's names and I have cheat sheets and all that, but those mean things mean so much to us. And Melissa Smith, our SVP reminds me every week. She's like, it was so and so noted that you wrote them on their birthday, or you called them. And those are the things I get really excited about. So the personal aspect is very important.
The third was concern for our community. We talked about Fogelman Cares and other efforts, but being good corporate citizens, out there. And once again, the goal wasn't just employing engagement in that, but we found that that's really been the sticking point that our associates really enjoy that.
And lastly, is also being really, really good at what we do. And I think that for the business aspect comes because despite all the social welfare and benefits we're doing, there still is a business aspect because we got to have be viable from financial side to support this. So being experts at what we do. And I think looking at 61 years being battle tested. We've hit numerous recessions and we've, when we've pushed through it and strived, we've not over leveraged the company and we've been responsible citizens.
So those are the four culture points that resonate with everyone. It's the first thing on onboarding. It's the first thing we talk about at company meetings and it's what we try to demonstrate. They really, it's, you know, bottom up, top down. That's what I think makes us unique. And that's allowed us to attract, retain and thrive.
LC : It's great. You know, in that four, you mentioned family, it's a big deal, right? And knowing your employees and, you know, on an everyday basis, making that effort that you do to know the people who support your success.
And you do that, you know, as you scale up and you get to 600, a lot of CEOs want to know this, by the way, this is not something that atypical, right? It's difficult. It's challenging to be able to scale up and see how do you get to all 600 in different locations in so many properties.
Tell me some of your secrets for that. How do you do that as you get larger?
MF : I'll just say that's been one of the most challenging parts. And, you know, and I look back right now, 32,000 units, 110 communities, I'd say, you know, 15, 20 years ago when we were 10,000 units, you know, it was definitely a lot more in the ball with touch and relationship. And it's gotten harder and harder. So empowering others to try to carry that message is very important, but I'd say a lot of it's been restraining our growth. If there's missteps we've probably made early on, you know, in the younger, less mature years of running the business with my brother, growth, profitability were such a driver.
And we quickly realized that, you know, without the people and the engagement, you know, it's not sustainable. So for that reason, you know, we've seen a lot of our competitor double, triple in size. We were a very. I'd say a large, even a national level up until five or 10 years ago. And now, and now we're, we're a midsize regional company and their companies now with 500,000 apartments.
But I just don't think they can manage the personal touch, in there. So our growth has been defined with, but how big can we be and still be good? So it's still have quality. And I don't think that size and quality are scalable. I know there's technology out there, other people, you know, talk about, you know, AI data sets and everything you're doing to allow them to scale their businesses, but there's still a personal aspect of that business and whether it's knowing our associates, knowing our customers, letting our investors being reachable to them.
Yeah, I looked very much going to the grocery store now with self checkout and I see the people are so confused and you know, one thing goes wrong and there's no one to help and you just missed the days of that personal touch. And I think about our apartment communities also. And I say, God, you know, cause right now I've got a daughter, for example, moving to DC and trying to get an apartment community. And we can't talk to a person, you know, everything's doing online. Everything's done through chatbots.
And we just want to do things simple, like where's the closest grocery store? You know, where can we get her furniture? We can rent from and such, and getting a person is so important. And I think about our communities where we try to know the residents names, we try to know with the other dog's names if they're out town, they need something to keep in touch with the, keep an eye on their property, you know, that's creating community and I think that you, despite technology scaling, that will make a difference. And I think that's gonna be our niche going forward, not have to be the biggest company, that being the most personal company.
LC : Kerry Gilliam just asked the same question. I think it's a good segue in terms of, is that some of your lessons, right? From your father, grandfather that you've learned and what, you know, in terms of what you've brought to being a Most Loved Workplace.
MF : No doubt. Every generation evolves. I’m sure, there wasn't technology back in those days and it was all a manual business, but it was just a commitment to the excellence, commitment to the associates. We just had an associate retire two months ago after 46 years in the business. You know, and that's Miss Sally. Miss Sally Robinson, she was a property called Cherokee Cabanas. She had four children, all born at our properties. Three of them worked for the company, you know, and a brother.
And she was so proud of the company at every company event, you know, she stood up and this goes back to my father's era also, and talked about what the company meant to her, that through the company she educated her children. They live good lives. She funded weddings, unfortunately, funerals as well, but what the company meant to her. And then at every company function, she would get up and sing Amazing Grace to everybody. But it was more of that touch of just being people. And I think I learned that from my father, you know, and also grandfather in the day.
And that's what we've tried to keep in the fabric. And no doubt, it's difficult. We stubbed our toe plenty as we've gotten larger and scaled, but I think our size will be governed by how far we can spread that message. If not, we just become company X and that's really, you know, regardless of the money you can make and this or that, you know, for Rick and I, the personal aspect of it's the most rewarding part.
LC : And that's the key to making that a part of your business success, isn't it, right? Making Most Loved Workplace, a part of your business success. And it sounds like that's exactly how you do it, right?
MF : We're trying.
LC : Yeah, you're trying to do it. And that's funny. That's what Zachary said. Zachary is talking about a lot of companies for Most Loved Workplace, you know, types that are maintaining their culture through golf.
You answered this already, you know, how have you maintained that culture? And it sounds like it's been working through you really, right? And your brother and going and. Tell me more about how you've done that at scale?
MF : At scale, it's just been having, you know, incredible associates spread the message, you know, Rick and I have, you know, of course, after 30 and 35 years in the business and being across, we can't be everywhere at once as the business has grown, we have people smarter than us working for us today that are doing a lot of the day to day, but I think it's really empowering and carrying that message.
And as it, once again, I said, our, you know, we had an executive committee meeting this morning, and number one on the agenda is status on corporate culture. You know, what can we do? And one of the things we identified this morning, you know, for example, is that we're in a very challenging time right now in the industry, seeing some weakness after 15 years of growth.
And it's making sure that for every question we have about trends, that we have two or three positive things to say as well. And really that's how you spread that. And I think when we did get out to the properties, it's making sure there's a name with the company, but you know, the company's become much more and above than Rick and I and a Fogelman. I mean, the Fogelman is the culture that has to be our last name, but Fogelman is 600 plus people out there who call us family. Absolutely, there’s no doubt [inaudible].
LC : Going back, it's kind of a, this is the one of the last things that I wanted to say. And what else for you? Is there something else you want to mention that you prepared that to others or even to your employees? Because they're listening now. So, you're right. What would you like to say to them, right? About being a Most Loved Workplace, about people who are interested in becoming a part of your team, right? What do you want them to hear? The validation.
MF : The validation of the screening criteria we went through to receive this award and first being certified and then being chosen out of a, you know, a hundred companies, only a few of our industry, then, and a lot of it was, as you mentioned, associate driven in terms of, surveys and feedback.
So, you know, you can read reviews and nobody does things perfect. And I think we stub our toe a lot, but we try to learn from our mistakes and move forward. And we'd love to have as many willing new associates as possible. Yeah, we're in a crazy industry, where, I'm embarrassed to say that associate turnover in our industry is roughly 50%, which is just crazy to think that we have recruiters. We recruit, we onboard, we train, and then you lose half the people.
So to even be 40 percent is well above, and we want to be the employer of choice, you know, with that. So our numbers are better than the industry, but can be a lot better than they are today to think that there's that much turnover. But what we've gotten out of this award and the recognition, it is so humbling, but we've been in business 61 years and I think we've seen the good times and the bad times and we know never to get too exuberant. We want to be here.
I personally feel, and Rick does too, responsibility to the families that work for us, knowing that a lot of the families depend on the incomes of these associates, the insurance. You know, it's amazing when people tell us about their 401(k) contributions and how they funded lifestyle and retirement and such, and that is a personal responsibility. So I would say that, you know, we're here for you.
Hopefully, you know, the results have spoken that we've gotten some validation, but we were just going to work as hard as we can to maintain and sustain what we've built.
LC : Love that, Mark, you know, President of Fogelman Properties. Mark Fogelman, it was so great to have you here today, the social responsibility that you have for your employees, your community for their livelihood, for your customers, of course, and management, and just the incredible enterprise that you've created with your family really speaks volumes to the fabric of culture that you're living today. It's actually the American dreams, part of the American dream very much.
So thank you so much for joining us, Mark Fogelman today on The Leader Show at Most Loved Workplace.
